My thoughts on SP

[Alexterri1]

When I first watched SP, I was 10. I liked it a lot, almost as much as the original in fact. I liked the forbidden romance plot, I related a lot to Kiara, I had a crush on kovu [sorry not sorry lol], and I loved the music.

Fast forward almost five years later, and my opinion on the movie has changed...quite a lot.

A day or two ago, I noticed that I hadn't watched SP in about six months. I decided to go ahead and watch it again. But this time, I was going to do it a bit differently. Usually when I watch the movie I have my nostalgia goggles on rather tight, but this time I decided to watch it like I hadn't watched it as a kid, and judge it that way.

Yeah....you can probably guess how I felt when the movie was over. I still stand by what I said before about it being decent, though.

So afterwards, I decided to do an analysis of my thoughts on the movie.. Lets get started!

Plot

Yeah, i think most of us can agree that plot is one of the movie's.. lesser points. I'm not really where i should start. I suppose I'll start with the forbidden romance stuff.

Forbidden Romance
Now, i think most of us can agree that the whole Forbidden Love thing is one of the big problems with this plot. [I will discuss Kovu and Kiara's relationship in general later] But here's the thing: it didn't HAVE to be. The Romeo and Juliet plot is hard to handle, yes, but it CAN be handled well: just look at West Side Story or at least it was handled better in WSS then it was in SP. There are two major problems with TLK2's plot:

1. The whole "outsiders vs pridelanders" and "simba struggling to live up to his legacy" plots are both very interesting, but they're shoved aside in favor of Romeo and Juliet. I think the movie would have been much better off if they gave the two aforementioned plots more screen time, and cut back a little on kovuxkiara. Basically, give the three plots equal screen time.

2. I am aware that they went with Romeo and Juliet as a sort of nod to how TLK was based off of Hamlet. But here's the thing: TLK was based off of hamlet, yes, but it wasn't JUST that. They changed a lot of stuff, and they took inspiration from other sources as well *coughKimbaTheWhiteLionandBambicough*. That is why, even though Hamlet ends with everyone dying, it doesn't feel like a cop-out at the end of TLK when everyone lives except for Scar.

But the thing about Romeo and Juliet is that its hard to make the star-crossed lovers plot work without their relationship ending terribly. Because if literally everyone is apposing it, there's no logical why it can end well, unless you make some major changes. That's why it just feels...jarring when TLKSP ends all happy daisy sunshine and everything's okay. I get that its a kids movie, but still, they could have handled the ending better while still making it happy. Maybe if they had of given Kovu and Kiara more development....

All the other sideplots

Like I said, I think this movie would have been much better off if they had given stuff like Outsiders VS Pridelanders and Simba's struggles more screen time.

General continuity problems

Siiggghhhh.

Yeah, umm, Disney, what happened to that cub at the end of TLK? It pretty obviously wasn't kiara. I guess you could argue its Kion but still. Oh and, what are these outsiders that appeared out of nowhere? What happened to the hyenas? Why did Simba kick the Outsiders out? Why is Zira obsessed with scar? How could Scar have "hand picked" Kovu? Are Nuka and Vitani Scar's children? Why is Rafiki suddenly nuts and singing about Upendi? Why is Simba suddenly a grouch? WHY IS NALA SUPER PALE?? WHERE DID HER FIRE GO??? The list goes on and on and on

Kovu and Kiara
I'll admit, I actually kinda like this pairing. Its cute, I think they're personalities would go pretty good together. I just wish it was developed more

Messege
'kay, so the message is supposed to be 'We are one", right? Well, that's a good message, but there's just one little problem with that. Why is it that the Outsiders get the "we are one" treatment, but the hyena's didn't in the first movie?

So, yeah, overall? The plot is meh. It had LOTS of potential, but ended up being handled pretty badly. That being said, there ARE some good scenes, but the bad scenes outweigh the good ones.

Characters
Characters are a bit better then the plot, I'll admit. I suppose we should start with our star.

Kiara

I have.... mixed feelings on Kiara.

When I was younger, I loved both Cub Kiara and Adult Kiara. But needless to say, my opinion has changed.

I like Cub Kiara because....well I just relate to her I guess. But even then, I still like her because I think she's cute, and her not wanting to be Queen is a good contrast to Cub Simba and could have potentially been developed a lot more when she was an adult.

But with Adult Kiara, the writers were just like "Meh, who cares about that, lets do Romeo and Juliet instead! 8D"

Even besides that, though, Adult Kiara is so annoying. First of all, she's overly naïve. I get that Simba sheltered her, but its just irritating. I think her character would have been more interesting if the writers made her smarter. Second of all, the way she handled Kovu and the Outsiders was just so stupid. "Oh hey, hot guy who was nice to me for one day as a cub! Lets be friends! Oh my god, you're good all the sudden after one day!! That's so realistic!! OMG Daddy, don't banish Kovu!! Its not like his family wants to kill you or anything!!! D:

And as for that "You will NEVER be Mufasa!" line, I have mixed feelings. On one hand/paw, I totally support someone calling Simba out. But on the other hand/paw, the line was less Kiara calling out Simba on being an overprotective parent and more just plain doing her "I know Kovu better then you do! Even though his family wants to kill me, you should totally trust him!!" thing.

So yeah, that's my opinion on Kiara. But what about our love interest?

Kovu
Okay, I'll admit, I like Kovu. Like, a lot. He's hawt

But I do have one major problem with his character. Namely, the fact that he just becomes good after....what, one day? That's just plain not realistic. I think they should have had him take a few WEEKS, if even that, before he converts. It would have made him more realistic.

So overall, I like Kovu, but i think he could have been done better. I'm really excited to see how he'll be handled in TLG!


The Outsiders in general
The Outsiders are another mixed bag.

On one hand, you have Zira, who is a pretty good villain as far as I'm concerned. Not as good as Scar, perhaps, but still.

Then you have Vitani, who is cool, but doesn't really have any character besides being generally tomboyish. But that makes her all the better to flesh out in fanfics, amirite? XD

...And then you have Nuka.



Honestly though, the problem with the outsiders isn't there individual characters, 'cause they're actually pretty good [besides Nuka lol]. Its the fact that they just show up out of NOWHERE. But that's a continuity problem, not a character problem.

Simba
You know, there's a popular theory floating around that Simba had PTSD, which is why he acts the way he does in the movies. While I like this theory, and I support it, I still have problems with Simba. I don't really have an issue with the way he treated the Outsiders; that was mostly justified. But the way he treated Kiara just bugged me so much.

For starters, being over-protective. I get that he was worried about her, and he didn't want her to get hurt, but there's a fine line between being a protective parent and smothering. And he just seemed overly-paranoid in general? Like, "danger could be lurking behind every rock!" What danger? The hyenas are gone, the Outsiders are banished for reasons that are never explained, and all the animals of the Pridelands just bowed and payed respects to his daughter like three months ago. Does he honestly think that they're going to kill her?

And he just makes stupid decisions in general, too. Like, sending Timon and Pumbaa? Really? Why not send Zazu? He can fly, he's not a complete idiot, he could quickly fly back to you to report any danger, and he's your Majordomo!

And everything he did during Kiara's hunt scene. Just...everything.

Firstly, you PROMISED to let her hunt by herself. Sending Timon and Pumbaa after her is just plain rude, not to mention its stupid. they could easily mess up her hunt.

Then when Kiara runs off out of frustration [I don't blame her], and gets caught in the fire, Simba claims that what he did was clearly a GREAT idea and that Kiara isn't allowed to hunt anymore because of the fire? Okay, first of all, she ran of because you're a lying liar who lies. Second of all, no hunts ever? Okay, just let her sit around in the den all day long and never do anything! Really, it just came down to this problem: Simba acting like Kiara she never have a life of her own and just sit in her den and never get into trouble. That's just plain bad parenting. Not nearly as bad as Zira, but still.

Honestly, I think Simba should have died during the Outsider ambush. That would have been a good risk to take. But of course we can't take any ricks because Dinsey doesn't LIKE taking risks in their cashcows

Timon and Pumbaa
Honestly, I hate Timon and Pumbaa in general. But I ESPECIALLY hate them here. All they do is be annoying and make crappy jokes that clash with the tone of the film. At least In the first film they did something important to the plot. Here, they do NOTHING! I really think they should have either been cut or had less screen time.

Everyone Else
Nala...what did they DO too you??!! First they soaked you in bleach for months on end to get your fur that light, and the bleach must of affected your brain because where the heck did your fire go??? Yeah, I know that parenting changes people but they made her into this docile sweet motherly...thing. That's not Nala! I could buy her taking on a slightly more maternal role after having cubs, but she wouldn't just become a docile little 1950's housewife!

And where the heck did Sarabi and Sarafine go? I suppose we could say Sarabi died, since her voice actress died too, but still.

Uhh..Rafiki must have had a serious brain deficiency or something because Upendi....

And Zazu did nothing so not gonna bother with that...


Yeah, over all, character are decent, but could have been better. Like, a LOT better.

Technical stuff

Voice Acting
Okay, time for me to be nice for a change! 8D Voice acting is actually pretty good. The returning actors from the original weren't the greatest, though...they phoned it in imo. And Cub Kovu's voice was kinda weird, and I hate Andy Dick. But besides that, everyone was pretty good. I especially like Kiara and Kovu's actors. And Kovu's voice is just...

Songs
I'll just sum it up like this:

He Lives In You: Best song
We Are One: Very good
My Lulluby: Decent
Upendi:
One Of Us: Silly but still good
Love Will Find a Way: Good, but feels kinda out of place

So yeah songs are probably the best part of the movie.

Character designs/colouring
Yeah, the colouring for the original characters was pretty bad. I mean, I already up there about Nala being soaked in bleach for months, but Simba wasn't much better. His mane was a different colour for some reason...

And the colouring in newer characters is mixed. The Outlander's designs are good. Kovu's design is alright, but he looks like someone put Scar and Simba in a blender and pushed high. Plus his mane looks kinda purplish to me.. though that could just be overall weird colouring In the movie. And Kiara's colouring bothers me too. I wish she was given more nala-esque colours [TK Nala colours, not TLK2 Nala colours].

Animation In general
I mean, the animation is better then a lot of other Disney sequels [I'd even argue its better then TLG'S animation] but compared to the original...its just pathetic really, even ignoring the budget. Its not HORRIBLE, but its not good either.


Over all
Yeah, this movie is alright. Not great, but hey at least it's not like Hunchback of Notre Dame 2

[Amur_Tiger]

Definitely some good thoughts, I'm going to organize my own thoughts on the subject in a similar fashion for ease of comparison.

Plot

I actually think the whole Romeo & Juliet theme was a mistake, it forces the movie to make Simba the bad guy and that's going to get you struggling to keep viewers on your side as a story-teller. Simba doesn't have to be perfect, and I think a more thorough examination of PTSD symptoms would have been pretty insightful and powerful but framing that in Romeo & Juliet's plot does a disservice to the characters from TLK and the seriousness of PTSD.

Pride conflict and an effort to reunite them is a fairly good angle to work a plot from in the TLK universe, which is why the conflict between the prides comes off pretty well, unfortunately the tools used to reunite them just weren't up to the task. Basically the story writers needed to pick which character was going to grow and develop and make sure they were front and center in the effort to reunite things, having one character do most of the growth and another do most of the adventure just feels like you've got a Marie Sue running amok telling everyone what they should do.

I'm not too concerned with the animation and art myself, it seemed all right and I'm even content with retconning who the raised cub at the end of TLK is supposed to be, TLK was a bit of a surprise hit, continuity errors like this were liable to happen. So long as the setting and theme of the follow-on feels like it's still TLK it should be fine.

Characters

Kiara

Kiara feels like she's from another movie and setting then TLK where there are no bad guys or consequences, her behavior is careless as a cub and adult and the fact that she gets away with it clashes pretty harshly with the sense that TLK is a world with consequences. This is reinforced when she shows no regard whatsoever for the near-miss Simba had with mortality himself.

Fixing her role would either involve making her more of a background character in Simba's arc in trying to end the conflict or putting her front and center in her own arc, given this is commentary about Kiara I'll discuss the latter. If she's going to play a major role in the conflict and ultimate resolution of conflict she's going to have to take the conflict seriously at some point, failing to do so just makes it seem as if she doesn't live in the same world that killed Mufasa and nearly killed Simba and Nala. This means that someone's going to have to die and it's going to have to be meaningful to Kiara, one of the outlander cubs seem like the best fit, which either means Kovu having to die or having Kiara spend more time with the other cubs as well. Then she has some skin in the game and an understandable motivation for wanting to stop the fighting.

Simba

With the exception of telling Kiara one thing and doing another I have few issues with Simba's actions, though I question his wisdom in picking 'minions' to keep an eye on Kiara. He was responding appropriately to a real threat and didn't overreact in violent terms on the many occasions where he had motivation to do so. The main issue is one of framing and focus and the same story with a tighter focus on Simba could have come off a lot better.

What you'd likely see in a more Simba-focused arc is him realizing how the ongoing conflict is echoing and re-inflicting the trauma he went through on another generation. Coming across a terrified cub Kovu and telling him to run along providing memories of Scar doing similar ( albeit with different context and no 'kill him' order ). Seeing in Kiara the same longing for childhood friends that he had and generally coming to the conclusion that he had to do something to bring this to a stop. Resolution might have even been achieved alongside Kiara as a nice father-daughter coming together moment as they work to bridge the wide gap between prides.

One thing I disagree with though, having him die in the Outlander ambush wouldn't help the movie at all, it would just push Kiara into being even more callous towards her now-dead father. The only way to make that moment work is for Kiara to change her mind and stop trusting Outlanders at this point, failing to alter behavior after they killed her father would just... not work well at all. You might be able to make the case that Kovu might be able to turn around the interia of it all but then the conclusion of King Kovu just makes it look like a convoluted usurpation plan which.... the Outlanders are known for.

Nala

She was basically missing in action, from the fact that she never escorted her daughter on her hunting or play to the fact that her daughter, unlike her, was a notably bad hunter it just seems like Nala wasn't doing the job of raising Nala that she should have. Simba's case is different from two angles, for one Sarabi just didn't have the sort of time raising her cub that Nala had, Simba spent his 'learning to hunt' phase eating bugs with Timon and Pumba, this also makes him a poor teacher for hunting. Simba's Pride needed a lot more Nala, especially if the focus ends up on Simba and PTSD, she'd be the one he'd lean on.

Zira

Reasonably well-motivated bad guy, though I think more back and forth between her efforts to steal food/murder pridelanders and Simba/Nala's efforts to fight back would have fleshed out the conflict a bit more.

Kovu

Worked pretty well as a love interest and bad guy turned good but it all seemed a bit too easy, though Zira's abuse didn't help the situation, really I think he would have been a much more believable character if he got caught out now and then. Nala's pouncing superiority on Simba took the edge off his arrogance as a cub, Kovu lacks this and ends up a bit flatter as a character.

Technicalities

Not too bothered by the voice acting, TLK had better performances overall but I have a hard time getting annoyed at that instead of the content of what they were being asked to say.

Songs, background and otherwise. Simba's Pride really really misses Hans Zimmer, who brought effective use of an orchestra to create the gravitas appropriate for the setting and story as well as using recurring themes to tie scenes together. Just comparing the opening songs you can see some pretty stark contrasts in the instrument composition and the way the music is used. If you want your audience to feel strong emotions your music has to be there for you, in Simba's Pride it wasn't really there either in the scenes built around a specific song or in the movie in general being supported by music.

[Alexterri1]

[quote="Amur_Tiger"]Definitely some good thoughts, I'm going to organize my own thoughts on the subject in a similar fashion for ease of comparison.

Plot

I actually think the whole Romeo & Juliet theme was a mistake, it forces the movie to make Simba the bad guy and that's going to get you struggling to keep viewers on your side as a story-teller. Simba doesn't have to be perfect, and I think a more thorough examination of PTSD symptoms would have been pretty insightful and powerful but framing that in Romeo & Juliet's plot does a disservice to the characters from TLK and the seriousness of PTSD.

Pride conflict and an effort to reunite them is a fairly good angle to work a plot from in the TLK universe, which is why the conflict between the prides comes off pretty well, unfortunately the tools used to reunite them just weren't up to the task. Basically the story writers needed to pick which character was going to grow and develop and make sure they were front and center in the effort to reunite things, having one character do most of the growth and another do most of the adventure just feels like you've got a Marie Sue running amok telling everyone what they should do.

I'm not too concerned with the animation and art myself, it seemed all right and I'm even content with retconning who the raised cub at the end of TLK is supposed to be, TLK was a bit of a surprise hit, continuity errors like this were liable to happen. So long as the setting and theme of the follow-on feels like it's still TLK it should be fine.

Characters

Kiara

Kiara feels like she's from another movie and setting then TLK where there are no bad guys or consequences, her behavior is careless as a cub and adult and the fact that she gets away with it clashes pretty harshly with the sense that TLK is a world with consequences. This is reinforced when she shows no regard whatsoever for the near-miss Simba had with mortality himself.

Fixing her role would either involve making her more of a background character in Simba's arc in trying to end the conflict or putting her front and center in her own arc, given this is commentary about Kiara I'll discuss the latter. If she's going to play a major role in the conflict and ultimate resolution of conflict she's going to have to take the conflict seriously at some point, failing to do so just makes it seem as if she doesn't live in the same world that killed Mufasa and nearly killed Simba and Nala. This means that someone's going to have to die and it's going to have to be meaningful to Kiara, one of the outlander cubs seem like the best fit, which either means Kovu having to die or having Kiara spend more time with the other cubs as well. Then she has some skin in the game and an understandable motivation for wanting to stop the fighting.

Simba

With the exception of telling Kiara one thing and doing another I have few issues with Simba's actions, though I question his wisdom in picking 'minions' to keep an eye on Kiara. He was responding appropriately to a real threat and didn't overreact in violent terms on the many occasions where he had motivation to do so. The main issue is one of framing and focus and the same story with a tighter focus on Simba could have come off a lot better.

What you'd likely see in a more Simba-focused arc is him realizing how the ongoing conflict is echoing and re-inflicting the trauma he went through on another generation. Coming across a terrified cub Kovu and telling him to run along providing memories of Scar doing similar ( albeit with different context and no 'kill him' order ). Seeing in Kiara the same longing for childhood friends that he had and generally coming to the conclusion that he had to do something to bring this to a stop. Resolution might have even been achieved alongside Kiara as a nice father-daughter coming together moment as they work to bridge the wide gap between prides.

One thing I disagree with though, having him die in the Outlander ambush wouldn't help the movie at all, it would just push Kiara into being even more callous towards her now-dead father. The only way to make that moment work is for Kiara to change her mind and stop trusting Outlanders at this point, failing to alter behavior after they killed her father would just... not work well at all. You might be able to make the case that Kovu might be able to turn around the interia of it all but then the conclusion of King Kovu just makes it look like a convoluted usurpation plan which.... the Outlanders are known for.

Nala

She was basically missing in action, from the fact that she never escorted her daughter on her hunting or play to the fact that her daughter, unlike her, was a notably bad hunter it just seems like Nala wasn't doing the job of raising Nala that she should have. Simba's case is different from two angles, for one Sarabi just didn't have the sort of time raising her cub that Nala had, Simba spent his 'learning to hunt' phase eating bugs with Timon and Pumba, this also makes him a poor teacher for hunting. Simba's Pride needed a lot more Nala, especially if the focus ends up on Simba and PTSD, she'd be the one he'd lean on.

Zira

Reasonably well-motivated bad guy, though I think more back and forth between her efforts to steal food/murder pridelanders and Simba/Nala's efforts to fight back would have fleshed out the conflict a bit more.

Kovu

Worked pretty well as a love interest and bad guy turned good but it all seemed a bit too easy, though Zira's abuse didn't help the situation, really I think he would have been a much more believable character if he got caught out now and then. Nala's pouncing superiority on Simba took the edge off his arrogance as a cub, Kovu lacks this and ends up a bit flatter as a character.

Technicalities

Not too bothered by the voice acting, TLK had better performances overall but I have a hard time getting annoyed at that instead of the content of what they were being asked to say.

Songs, background and otherwise. Simba's Pride really really misses Hans Zimmer, who brought effective use of an orchestra to create the gravitas appropriate for the setting and story as well as using recurring themes to tie scenes together. Just comparing the opening songs you can see some pretty stark contrasts in the instrument composition and the way the music is used. If you want your audience to feel strong emotions your music has to be there for you, in Simba's Pride it wasn't really there either in the scenes built around a specific song or in the movie in general being supported by music.[/quote]

You made some pretty good points.

I guess Simba dying wouldn't be a great idea but.. I dunno, I just kinda wish the movie had done more then what they did. I would definitely have added in most of the deleted scenes.

[Amur_Tiger]

[quote="Alexterri1"]You made some pretty good points.

I guess Simba dying wouldn't be a great idea but.. I dunno, I just kinda wish the movie had done more then what they did. I would definitely have added in most of the deleted scenes.[/quote]

I understand where you're coming from with the idea and it certainly seems to fit as a plot point, it's just really hard to reconcile with Kiara's character and the end goal of the movie. Reuniting the prides is a pretty tenuous goal to begin with, getting Simba killed would just make it really really hard to understand the motivation for pridelanders to trust the outlanders. The best use of tragic moments is in a way that makes the pridelanders empathize more with the outlanders to get the plot moving in the 'We are one' direction, which is why the outlander cubs are likely targets.

[Captain Cupcake]

[quote="Amur_Tiger"]Songs, background and otherwise. Simba's Pride really really misses Hans Zimmer, who brought effective use of an orchestra to create the gravitas appropriate for the setting and story as well as using recurring themes to tie scenes together.[/quote]

Just to point out, even though I also find the score significantly weaker than the original, it is actually leitmotivically structured like the first one. There are reoccurring motifs for Kiara, Simba, the Outlanders/Zira, that action theme, and the love theme derived off of "Love Will Find a Way."