What would have happened had Zira not ambushed Simba?

[FriendlyHyena]

Kovu may have wanted to ask Simba to marry Kiara. Had Zira not attacked Simba when Simba was meeting with Kouv, nobody in the Pridelands would have any direct evidence that Kovu was still working for Zira. However, the lyrics in "One of Us", particular "for we know he would do what he's done" indicates that everyone pretty much EXPECTED him to turn traitor.

Now, Kovu may have felt that he kind of brought it upon himself when he did get in trouble after Zira's ambush and he got found out (even if he hadn't been in on the ambush). However, if Kovu had not been found out but had asked Simba to marry Kiara, the kingdom, including Zazu, may have talked him out of it, if Simba would even have considered it. Simba's rejection would now make him feel that Simba was an obstacle to him getting Kiara. Hence, now he WOULD have a motive to kill Simba again( his previous ones had been lost when he found out the truth about Scar): to marry his daughter.

Zira picked a very bad time to ambush. Had she not ambushed at all, or had she done it earlier before Simba found out the truth about Scar, things may have turned out in Zira's favor.

At least, that's my view. Also, recall how Kiara defied Simba and went to go find Kovu even after his exile? Had Simba told Kovu no about marrying Kiara, Kiara may have gotten angry enough to offer to run away with him. (In the actual timeline, Kovu, after his exile, suggested that they do just that.)

Kovu still would have been upset about being lied to about Scar, but Nuka's death wouldn't have happened and there wouldn't have been the falling out with Zira over it. Thus, Kovu either would have ran away to form his own pride or taken Kiara with him to the Outlands. Either way, I think he'd have kept in contact with Zira. Zira would have picked up that Kiara had run away and perhaps used it to either sneak up on Kiara and hold her hostage to lure Simba into some kind of confrontation or she'd have assassins ready to attack a part of the search party for Kiara that had Simba in it.

Also, they might even be able to catch Simba by himself, looking for Kiara (if Mufasa went alone to the Elephant Graveyard to rescue Simba and Nala, it's not beyond the realm of possibility to think that Simba may have gone off into a part of the Outlands, by himself, to look for his daughter.)

On the other hand, if Simba DID let Kovu marry Kiara, that would make Kovu the Next In Line for the Kingship of Pride Rock, which means that now, instead of a bloody battle, all Zira now would need to do is find a way to kill Simba and the throne would be hers by default. (Of course, Kovu could well have double-crossed her and tried to stop her from killing Simba. As, unlike in the actual timeline, she didn't see Kovu betray her, she would probably think the whole marriage thing was a scheme to take the throne and take over.)

[SimbasGuard]

Kovu was trying to work up the courage to tell Kiara about Zira's plot before Simba wanted to talk with him, so asking Simba for permission to marry Kiara was not on his mind at the time.

Simba was about to let Kovu join The Pride, now while this is in no way the same as Simba giving his blessing on Kovu marring Kiara. Given Nala's conversation with Simba the night before and the wink he gave Kiara before taking Kovu on that walk the next day. Simba knew full well that by letting Kovu join The Pride, he was also saying it was O.K.for Kovu And Kiara to date.

Had Zira not done that ambush, Kovu would have come clean to Kiara (he obviously did not want to peruse a relationship with her under any false pretenses), and then they would have gone to Simba with the truth.

The real question is when Zira gets the report from her most trusted soldier Vitani, why would she choose to do nothing? The only other option would be a full scale attack, against Simba's Pride With a fully healthy Simba who would now have Kovu on his side. Those odds would not look good for The Outsiders.

[Hatari05]

[quote="SimbasGuard"]Kovu was trying to work up the courage to tell Kiara about Zira's plot before Simba wanted to talk with him, so asking Simba for permission to marry Kiara was not on his mind at the time.

Simba was about to let Kovu join The Pride, now while this is in no way the same as Simba giving his blessing on Kovu marring Kiara. Given Nala's conversation with Simba the night before and the wink he gave Kiara before taking Kovu on that walk the next day. Simba knew full well that by letting Kovu join The Pride, he was also saying it was O.K.for Kovu And Kiara to date.

Had Zira not done that ambush, Kovu would have come clean to Kiara (he obviously did not want to peruse a relationship with her under any false pretenses), and then they would have gone to Simba with the truth.

The real question is when Zira gets the report from her most trusted soldier Vitani, why would she choose to do nothing? The only other option would be a full scale attack, against Simba's Pride With a fully healthy Simba who would now have Kovu on his side. Those odds would not look good for The Outsiders.[/quote]

I actually think that while the ambush was well planned Zira might've done more damage if she waited. Kovu isn't willing anymore but she could still control him by using Kiara against him threatening to kill her if Kovu doesn't comply or even telling him she dies if Kovu confesses. This would leave Kovu trapped as despite his morals I don't think he would risk Kiara for them. If killing Simba meant Kiara's survival it's possible he would do it. Another possibility is letting Kovu confess as it only builds deep trust that Zira can tear apart later on.

I think if the ambush happened after Kovu confessed it's unlikely even Kiara wouldn't of believed him as it would paint his confession as part of his cover which would be a deep betrayal to Kiara as the moment that cemented their trust and love of each other would've been a lie meant to use her to cement Simba's trust. Such a revelation would likely bring out a far more vicious and vengeful side of Kiara especially if Simba didn't survive. If Kovu confessed and than later on was exposed as a traitor after Simba died Kiara would likely feel so betrayed that she would hunt him to the ends of the Earth.

Zira could've taken what Kovu loved and made it her main weapon against him, either as a hostage and leverage or by using Kovu's inevitable "betrayal" to crush Kiara's soul and leave him in a scenario where the woman he loves wants his head. I think if Simba wasn't ambushed we would've went to a far darker place than Simba's Pride ended up in.

[FriendlyHyena]

Of the three times that Kovu had a chance to attack and kill Simba, the second time that Vitani was there was the worst opportunity of the three.

The first one, Simba was alone at a watering hole. The third time, they were alone in the fields. The second time, Kiara and the other members of the Pride were in there. He'd have to kill Simba so that he didn't cry out. It would have been almost a suicide mission. Surely, Zira would have known that.

[Hatari05]

[quote="FriendlyHyena"]Of the three times that Kovu had a chance to attack and kill Simba, the second time that Vitani was there was the worst opportunity of the three.

The first one, Simba was alone at a watering hole. The third time, they were alone in the fields. The second time, Kiara and the other members of the Pride were in there. He'd have to kill Simba so that he didn't cry out. It would have been almost a suicide mission. Surely, Zira would have known that.[/quote]

I always saw the moment of Simba at the watering hole as pretty much a practice run. Kovu tracking him making certain that when the time came he could do it unseen.

Since Kovu was being constantly tracked and monitored it is safe to assume Zira didn't fully trust him and knew him genuinely falling for Kiara was a possibility as such it's likely Vitani witnessed most of the day and maybe became worried to the point that seeing Simba and Kovu alone caused her to just become ecstatic without realizing this wasn't a right moment. We didn't see her and Zira's conversation it's possible she mentioned that and Zira went it's not a big deal there are better openings Vitani than mentions everything she saw that day and Zira knowing Kovu concludes she's right. There's an entire dialogue scene we didn't see yes saying it refers to that is the most obvious but it could refer to other factors there are many details Zira's roar could be a reaction to and many things Vitani saw with her own eyes.

Naturally this is all speculation but it does add intriguing layers to certain scenes as well as Vitani herself.

[SimbasGuard]

[quote="Hatari05"]I actually think that while the ambush was well planned Zira might've done more damage if she waited. Kovu isn't willing anymore but she could still control him by using Kiara against him threatening to kill her if Kovu doesn't comply or even telling him she dies if Kovu confesses. This would leave Kovu trapped as despite his morals I don't think he would risk Kiara for them. If killing Simba meant Kiara's survival it's possible he would do it.[/quote]

To do that though (most likely Vitani) would have to corner Kovu alone to make that threat. With Kovu being allowed to sleep in the den that would be pretty much impossible.

[quote="Hatari05"]Another possibility is letting Kovu confess as it only builds deep trust that Zira can tear apart later on.

I think if the ambush happened after Kovu confessed it's unlikely even Kiara wouldn't of believed him as it would paint his confession as part of his cover which would be a deep betrayal to Kiara as the moment that cemented their trust and love of each other would've been a lie meant to use her to cement Simba's trust. Such a revelation would likely bring out a far more vicious and vengeful side of Kiara especially if Simba didn't survive. If Kovu confessed and than later on was exposed as a traitor after Simba died Kiara would likely feel so betrayed that she would hunt him to the ends of the Earth.

Zira could've taken what Kovu loved and made it her main weapon against him, either as a hostage and leverage or by using Kovu's inevitable "betrayal" to crush Kiara's soul and leave him in a scenario where the woman he loves wants his head. I think if Simba wasn't ambushed we would've went to a far darker place than Simba's Pride ended up in.[/quote]

The thing is that if Kovu did confess and was believed by Simba as well as Kiara. Then that deep trust would have been established. When Zira then attempted the ambush Simba would not have believed Zira's lie, Kovu would not have hesitated to fight at Simba's side, and since it took nearly all of The Outsiders to force Simba to retreat. When Simba was basically fighting them alone. The outcome could easily have been different If Kovu was fighting alongside Simba from the get go.

[FriendlyHyena]

I don't know about that. I don't know if Kovu would have fought the Outsiders. He even tried to save Nuka (who always hated him). I can't see him attacking Zira and Vitani either to do more than let Simba get away alive. I don't think he's at the point where he'd be willing to KILL any of them to save Simba (now, I think he WOULD if they tried to kill Kiara, but I don't think he's ready do that yet for Simba.)

[SimbasGuard]

Fighting doesn't necessarily mean killing (At least not in the world of Lion King). In the scenario put forth Kovu would now be a dedicated Pridelander. The ambush would now force Kovu to choose between Kiara and his family. Also Simba would not be asking Kovu to attack his family, or protect him from them. Kovu would just have to defend himself against his families' aggression.

[Hatari05]

[quote="SimbasGuard"] To do that though (most likely Vitani) would have to corner Kovu alone to make that threat. With Kovu being allowed to sleep in the den that would be pretty much impossible.

The thing is that if Kovu did confess and was believed by Simba as well as Kiara. Then that deep trust would have been established. When Zira then attempted the ambush Simba would not have believed Zira's lie, Kovu would not have hesitated to fight at Simba's side, and since it took nearly all of The Outsiders to force Simba to retreat. When Simba was basically fighting them alone. The outcome could easily have been different If Kovu was fighting alongside Simba from the get go.[/quote]


Trust takes time to build but it's very easy to destroy you can spend 3 years earning someone's trust and lose it in a day. All those things you mentioned are a possibility but only if Zira allows them. The ambush would require modifications as would Zira's choice of words but painting Kovu as responsible is still pretty easy, she would just have to paint his confession as part of the plan which is very possible.

I don't think getting to Kovu in the den is impossible, Zira's pride is well trained in stealth so I think Vitani could get to him put her claws to a sleeping Kiara's neck and gesture to him to leave without saying anything. If Zira didn't want to take this risk she could just wait until Kovu was alone it might take a few days or weeks but it will happen, than one day when he's out by the waterhole or patrolling the boarders or maybe looking for a gift for Kiara Vitani or Zira herself confronts him.

[SimbasGuard]

[quote="Hatari05"] Trust takes time to build but it's very easy to destroy you can spend 3 years earning someone's trust and lose it in a day. All those things you mentioned are a possibility but only if Zira allows them. The ambush would require modifications as would Zira's choice of words but painting Kovu as responsible is still pretty easy, she would just have to paint his confession as part of the plan which is very possible.[/quote]

True, but Simba would be prepared (Yeah I know what I said) for Zira to lie knowing Zira's thirst for revenge. He might keep the corner of his Eye on Kovu, but once Kovu made it clear who he was standing with. Not with a debate or an argument, but just by standing alongside Simba ready to fight if needed. I think Kovu telling the truth and Kiara vouching for him. Would make Simba be willing to give Kovu that chance.

[quote="Hatari05"]I don't think getting to Kovu in the den is impossible, Zira's pride is well trained in stealth so I think Vitani could get to him put her claws to a sleeping Kiara's neck and gesture to him to leave without saying anything. If Zira didn't want to take this risk she could just wait until Kovu was alone it might take a few days or weeks but it will happen, than one day when he's out by the waterhole or patrolling the boarders or maybe looking for a gift for Kiara Vitani or Zira herself confronts him.[/quote]

The 2nt scenario you present is highly possible, but Keep in mind in the actual movie when an injured Simba was limping back to Pride Rock and all he could say was

[quote="Simba"]Kovu, ambush[/quote]

Kiara did not believe it.

what it would boil down to in this scenario,would be if Kiara's anger and grief over Simba would outweigh her love for Kovu.

What I would really have to wonder is what direction would the level headed, but obviously now grief-stricken Nala try to influence her daughter toward. I think she would tell Kiara to trust her heart.

What I would think is most likely to happen would be that That what would now be Kiara's Pride would be actively seeking to go to war with The Outsiders.